AWD 240sx RBxxDET(T) Swap!
03-31-2009 | 10:56 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 25
From: NE
AWD 240sx RBxxDET(T) Swap!
Ok you guys, good news!
Now through much research pertaining to this project I have come across several points regarding the AWD RBxxDET(T) into a 240 Swap.
Myths
1."Don't even think about it. How big is your bank account? I hope you are a master fabricator."
Counter point:
- This swap is almost Bolt-in! Its unbelievable to me how people can realize the ability of swapping the RB25DET into a 240, yet disregard that the AWD conversion can be done at all, let alone fairly easily with minimal metal skill. Drilling holes and minor MIG welding is all thats required, which pretty much anyone can do. And based on your resourcefulness, the swap does *NOT cost $15,000 on top of your car to perform.
2."You have to graft the skyline front onto the 240, that's really hard."
Counter point:
- Now when a car manufacturers, especially Japanese ones, make their line of cars for a particular generation, there is usually a decent deal of variety of types of vehicles. From coupes to sedans to SUV types. However if you notice, since the swapping insurgency of the last decade, many parts from these seemingly different cars actually interchange with each other quite a bit. This isn't more true for Nissan's "Parts Bin engineering style" as put by another member.
The generation skyline directly co-insides with that generation's 240. I.E. GTR32 = S13. GTR33 = S14, and GTR34 = S15. Although they are all pretty much the same. Think about it. When you Mass-produce cars, why bother loosing money independently designing these cars separately, when you can base your models off of "Platforms" and make two or three cars out of one canvas so to speak.
Exhibit A:
This is a stock 240SX Crossmember Vs a RWD R33 GTS-S Crossmember.
Used for RB25DET swaps, it literally bolts right up.
Exhibit B:
Here we have an empty 240sx engine bay, with some gnarly inner fender work I might add!
Notice you have a crossmember, and separate lower tension rod adapters.
Exhibit C:
This is a Z32 300zx Front suspension.
Notice how its a RWD car with GTR type front multi-link!?:good:
Exhibit D:
Now here is the GTR sub frame again. Notice how it integrates the tension rod adapters right into a perimeter frame-type.
The next one is the underneath of the subframe. It shows the four bolt flange style of ball-joints for the LCA or otherwise known as the "Transverse link."
Finally the Full-race R14 and how its has a GTR32 Subframe.
3."Unless you know Japanese, good luck getting the 4WD (ATTESSA) to wire up.
Counterpoint:
- To be perfectly honest most of those willing to do this swap, will probably end up buying a GTR32 Front Clip. And that's fine. So am I. The GTR32 Factory 899 page service manual is available free online as well, in engrish.
Go anywhere on the internet, especially in skylines Downunder or GTR UK. Ask them if having a factory R32-spec ATTESSA system is worth a damn at all, and they will tell you no, over and over. They fix the problem with electronic controllers, which sort of "Trick" the G-sensors into giving up much more front wheel torque, kinda like your SAFC "Tricks" the ECU into thinking there is less Air.
The reality of the R32 system is that the processing resolution is that of an Nintendo Entertainment System. Its too-little, too-late and spin-inducing oversteer becomes evident under hard driving.
Hydraulic pressure of 70psi is required to fully engage the transfer case into a 50/50 torque split. Veilside makes a Hydraulic Torque Controller, I belive GRID does as well, so you know they work. Fixed front wheel torque, or none at all. Pretty simple to adapt.
FACTS
1.Pretty much all Nissan parts interchange with each other, making this an OEM oriented swap process, not "custom" as so many people claim. The most important piece of the swap, the subframe, bolts in sans drilling two additional holes.
2.RB20DET or RB26DETT can be used. ECU wiring is pretty much the same excpt the GTR has low-impedance injectors and wiring in the resistor box is involved. No sweat.
RB20 AWD has a 4.xx ratio front and rear, and RB26 has 3.90. So make sure you match front and rear diffs or your trans will explode!
3.Although the subframe bolts up to a 240 relatively easy, the GTR's unique multi-link suspension does not. You are going to have to get creative on this. Either (This is where the MIG comes in) Weld in the GTR strut towers like this:
OR
-Make an upper-link-to-McPearson Adapter like these guys:
Ow. My brain hurts...:nosleep:
Now through much research pertaining to this project I have come across several points regarding the AWD RBxxDET(T) into a 240 Swap.
Myths
1."Don't even think about it. How big is your bank account? I hope you are a master fabricator."
Counter point:
- This swap is almost Bolt-in! Its unbelievable to me how people can realize the ability of swapping the RB25DET into a 240, yet disregard that the AWD conversion can be done at all, let alone fairly easily with minimal metal skill. Drilling holes and minor MIG welding is all thats required, which pretty much anyone can do. And based on your resourcefulness, the swap does *NOT cost $15,000 on top of your car to perform.
2."You have to graft the skyline front onto the 240, that's really hard."
Counter point:
- Now when a car manufacturers, especially Japanese ones, make their line of cars for a particular generation, there is usually a decent deal of variety of types of vehicles. From coupes to sedans to SUV types. However if you notice, since the swapping insurgency of the last decade, many parts from these seemingly different cars actually interchange with each other quite a bit. This isn't more true for Nissan's "Parts Bin engineering style" as put by another member.
The generation skyline directly co-insides with that generation's 240. I.E. GTR32 = S13. GTR33 = S14, and GTR34 = S15. Although they are all pretty much the same. Think about it. When you Mass-produce cars, why bother loosing money independently designing these cars separately, when you can base your models off of "Platforms" and make two or three cars out of one canvas so to speak.
Exhibit A:
This is a stock 240SX Crossmember Vs a RWD R33 GTS-S Crossmember.
Used for RB25DET swaps, it literally bolts right up.
Exhibit B:
Here we have an empty 240sx engine bay, with some gnarly inner fender work I might add!
Notice you have a crossmember, and separate lower tension rod adapters.
Exhibit C:
This is a Z32 300zx Front suspension.
Notice how its a RWD car with GTR type front multi-link!?:good:
Exhibit D:
Now here is the GTR sub frame again. Notice how it integrates the tension rod adapters right into a perimeter frame-type.
The next one is the underneath of the subframe. It shows the four bolt flange style of ball-joints for the LCA or otherwise known as the "Transverse link."
Finally the Full-race R14 and how its has a GTR32 Subframe.
3."Unless you know Japanese, good luck getting the 4WD (ATTESSA) to wire up.
Counterpoint:
- To be perfectly honest most of those willing to do this swap, will probably end up buying a GTR32 Front Clip. And that's fine. So am I. The GTR32 Factory 899 page service manual is available free online as well, in engrish.
Go anywhere on the internet, especially in skylines Downunder or GTR UK. Ask them if having a factory R32-spec ATTESSA system is worth a damn at all, and they will tell you no, over and over. They fix the problem with electronic controllers, which sort of "Trick" the G-sensors into giving up much more front wheel torque, kinda like your SAFC "Tricks" the ECU into thinking there is less Air.
The reality of the R32 system is that the processing resolution is that of an Nintendo Entertainment System. Its too-little, too-late and spin-inducing oversteer becomes evident under hard driving.
Hydraulic pressure of 70psi is required to fully engage the transfer case into a 50/50 torque split. Veilside makes a Hydraulic Torque Controller, I belive GRID does as well, so you know they work. Fixed front wheel torque, or none at all. Pretty simple to adapt.
FACTS
1.Pretty much all Nissan parts interchange with each other, making this an OEM oriented swap process, not "custom" as so many people claim. The most important piece of the swap, the subframe, bolts in sans drilling two additional holes.
2.RB20DET or RB26DETT can be used. ECU wiring is pretty much the same excpt the GTR has low-impedance injectors and wiring in the resistor box is involved. No sweat.
RB20 AWD has a 4.xx ratio front and rear, and RB26 has 3.90. So make sure you match front and rear diffs or your trans will explode!
3.Although the subframe bolts up to a 240 relatively easy, the GTR's unique multi-link suspension does not. You are going to have to get creative on this. Either (This is where the MIG comes in) Weld in the GTR strut towers like this:
OR
-Make an upper-link-to-McPearson Adapter like these guys:
Ow. My brain hurts...:nosleep:
03-31-2009 | 03:47 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 25
From: NE
No smoke. Let me get to the point. I worked at F1dyno in Portland, Maine for a couple years.
Built a few Hondas, built a few Diamond Stars. They were all pretty fun, especially the AWD turbo cars.
But at the end of the day they are FWD-based cars, and as most people know, FWD sucks bawls.
So, anyways heres the "canvas"
Its got a blown ka24e, and an auto trans. Perfect for an RB swap!
I should be getting the R32GTR subframe today, actually.
After all my research, I am not too sure why people are not doings this more often. From what I understand there are four of these swaps publically.
1.Full-Race r14
2."Truckadsjoe" from the Northwest Nissans forum
3.Another NN car
4. UP Garage in Washington State have one with Full working ATTESSA
It all seems to be boiling down to two major things to get the swap done.
1.For an s13, the R32GTR front subframe, suspension, knuckles, and brakes.
For s14, its R33GTR.
2. Hydraulic actuation to get the transfer case to engage. HICAS pump outlet to a valve. Then up to 70psi to the transfer case to get a 50/50 lock, and anywhere in between.
Hopefully, I can start to finish this car, AND get full documentation so others can perform it as well.
Built a few Hondas, built a few Diamond Stars. They were all pretty fun, especially the AWD turbo cars.
But at the end of the day they are FWD-based cars, and as most people know, FWD sucks bawls.
So, anyways heres the "canvas"
Its got a blown ka24e, and an auto trans. Perfect for an RB swap!
I should be getting the R32GTR subframe today, actually.
After all my research, I am not too sure why people are not doings this more often. From what I understand there are four of these swaps publically.
1.Full-Race r14
2."Truckadsjoe" from the Northwest Nissans forum
3.Another NN car
4. UP Garage in Washington State have one with Full working ATTESSA
It all seems to be boiling down to two major things to get the swap done.
1.For an s13, the R32GTR front subframe, suspension, knuckles, and brakes.
For s14, its R33GTR.
2. Hydraulic actuation to get the transfer case to engage. HICAS pump outlet to a valve. Then up to 70psi to the transfer case to get a 50/50 lock, and anywhere in between.
Hopefully, I can start to finish this car, AND get full documentation so others can perform it as well.
03-31-2009 | 05:59 PM
#6
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 353
From: Red Lion PA
03-31-2009 | 08:31 PM
#10
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,684
From: Alpharetta, GA
I was joking, hence the "ROFL" smilies, I'm sure the original poster got the joke. I, for one, want to see this project completed, I think it'd be awesome!
:guitaris t:
03-31-2009 | 10:30 PM
#12
why didnt i get a jdm s14? well thats easy its easier and cheaper to buy a usdm S14
03-31-2009 | 11:24 PM
#13
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 221
From: Madison, Wisconsin
the hassle makes the project that much more worth it
the satisfaction you get from completeing a project such as this is huge
neone can buy a car, it takes a pretty hardcore tuner-till-death kinda guy to biuld one like that
im all for this happening, i wish i could biuld one myself
the satisfaction you get from completeing a project such as this is huge
neone can buy a car, it takes a pretty hardcore tuner-till-death kinda guy to biuld one like that
im all for this happening
, i wish i could biuld one myself
04-01-2009 | 06:26 AM
#14
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 25
From: NE
Thanks for the support you guys. I have this posted on few forums so it takes me a while to reply.
I totally got the joke, it was good! "Real car" I wish!
Truth be told a GTR is cool. I mean, who doesn't want one?
But now even Canada is throwing red tape around the GTRs getting imported so it looks like most of the hassle would be dealing with them.
Its not as hard as most think it to be. Besides, the idea of a 2700lb GTR makes me wet.
Think of this: Why would a mass-producing/profiteering car manufacturer redesign every individual car seperately?
Not much profit in that! So they base many different cars off of single "Platforms".
These platforms co-inside with each other quite well.
Point here is that the R32, s13, z32,etc share alot from each other.
Hell, even the b13 sentra has a GTR type multi-link front suspension.
One poster in my local club reffered to Nissan's style of building cars as a "Parts bin" style of engineering.
I will show that its not impossible to do, and only a little difficulty involved for the DIY'er.
I totally got the joke, it was good! "Real car" I wish!
Truth be told a GTR is cool. I mean, who doesn't want one?
But now even Canada is throwing red tape around the GTRs getting imported so it looks like most of the hassle would be dealing with them.
Its not as hard as most think it to be. Besides, the idea of a 2700lb GTR makes me wet.
Think of this: Why would a mass-producing/profiteering car manufacturer redesign every individual car seperately?
Not much profit in that! So they base many different cars off of single "Platforms".
These platforms co-inside with each other quite well.
Point here is that the R32, s13, z32,etc share alot from each other.
Hell, even the b13 sentra has a GTR type multi-link front suspension.
One poster in my local club reffered to Nissan's style of building cars as a "Parts bin" style of engineering.
I will show that its not impossible to do, and only a little difficulty involved for the DIY'er.
Last edited by GTR 240; 04-01-2009 at 10:24 AM.